Introduction

On October 17th, 2024, Jason McDowell (The AR Show), Jeri Ellsworth (Tilt Five), David Bonelli (Pulsar), Bradley Lynch (SadlyItsBradley), and I recorded a 2-hour roundtable discussion about the recent announcements of the Snap Spectacles 5 and Meta Orion optical AR/MR glasses. Along the way, we discussed various related subjects, including some about the Apple Vision Pro.

I divided the two-hour discussion into three parts, with this being the last and, I think, in some ways, the most interesting part. We discussed more of the motivations for Meta and Snap announcing these concept products. Brad shared some information he has heard about issues with Meta’s EMG wristband control, and Jeri shared some of her past experiences with EMG-type control.

Warning: Much of this video is based on opinions based on prior tech business experience and second-hand information.

Part 3 of the AR Roundtable Video

As per my prior companion articles for this roundtable video, I will try to fill in some details from our on-the-fly discussions. Below is a link to Part 3 of the roundtable, followed by a brief description of each section.

0:00 Introduction of the panelist (repeated from part 1)

This is about two minutes, repeating part one.

2:13 Meta’s Motivations and “Walled Gardens”

Jason asked Brad about what he thought about the wide FOV on Meta’s Orion. However, Brad’s answer was more directed at what he thought about Meta’s interest in VR and Meta’s motivation in AR. Brad said that a small screen/FOV will forever be seen as an accessory to a smartphone and that Meta wants a big screen/FOV because it fits better with Meta’s long-term play to try and replace the smartphone.

Brad’s comment led the various panel members to discuss Meta’s motivations in AR and the concept of what Jeri called a “Walled Gardens” (to have an ecosystem that one company controls and can defend against competitors). I talked about “intersection points,” which are times when technology has advanced to the point where a set of technologies has progressed to the point that can enable a new category of products such as PCs, Laptops, and Smartphones.

I brought up the question of whether AI is an intersection point, as many people think today. The next question is whether someone can set up a “walled garden” or whether multiple companies can have their own AI, where it becomes more of a commodity that many companies have rather than a defensible barrier to entry into a product category. Can someone “spin up” the “buyers bring sellers and sellers bring buyers” barriers as we saw with eBay and Google search? Or the way that Amazon’s shipping network is one of their advantages and a barrier to other entering their space.

David talks about “content-driven” versus “user-driven” interaction. With content-driven interaction, you can live with a smaller FOV, but with “user-driven,” you want a wider FOV and eye tracking. With a user-driven approach, information is provided based on what the user is looking at, and this fits Meta’s revenue models better. Jeri comments that the wider FOV will help Meta grab the user’s attention.

9:33 More FOV discussion

I discuss the reasons for wanting a smaller and a larger FOV.

10:53 Meta’s EMG Wristband Issues

Brad has been following EMG wristbands for some time and has some interesting feedback from people who have used Meta’s EMG wristband. According to Brad’s sources, Meta’s wristband is far from being ready as a product. First, it can have problems working with people who have a lot of fat or hair around their wrists. He said that for some people, the wristband has to be uncomfortably tight if it works at all. The next issue is reliability in detecting gestures. Brad’s sources said that Meta had to greatly simplify the set of gestures and make them more overt to improve recognition. Like most gesture-based methods, there is going to be a problem of recovering from false positives.

Jeri shared some of her experiences working with EMG devices, particularly problems with lag and how they make user control difficult. She also discussed how the reliability problems as sensors shift/move with use and if the user sweats. Brad added that the detection is very sensitive to electrical interference; even a smartwatch on top of the wristband can interfere with its operation, and he amplified the issue of latency.

I discussed that any form of gesture-based input ties up the hands, which is a problem for many applications that need to be “hands-free.”

17:56 Tethering to a Compute Pack and the need for a second device

I generally agree that “wireless tethering” is infinitely better than a wired cable back to a processing pod or phone. Many companies, including Meta, with Snap Spectacles 5 being the recent exception, move weight from the headset to a “dongle” battery and/or compute pod.

This discussion brought up Meta’s overall strategy and the issue that Apple would seem to have an “ace-card” with their “wireless dongle” being an iPhone people already own. How could Meta get someone to buy their AR glasses with the compute pod and forgo their smartphone?

18:52 Replacing the Smartphone and Business Models (Meta, Apple, and Snap)

This discussion brought up Meta’s overall strategy and the issue that Apple would seem to have an “ace-card” with their “wireless dongle” being an iPhone people already own. How could Meta get someone to buy their AR glasses with the compute pod and forgo their smartphone? Similar questions were raised about Snap Spectacles. Jason questions whether Meta has to develop a smartphone of its own, which has big barriers to entry.

We then go on with a far-ranging discussion of various business and market issues and motivations.

37:28 Eye Glow and Captured Light with Diffractive Waveguides

David discussed a bit about the social issues about (far field) light either being captured and reflective and eye glow from the waveguides. Jeri suggested that companies might have to try to own the issue and try to turn it from a negative to a positive.

39:42 Orion’s Eye Glow vs. Apple Vision Pro’s Eyesight

Brad commented that people’s eyes look a lot like Apple Vision Pro’s EyeSight feature when wearing Orion due to the eye glow.

40:58 AR Glasses Size and What is “Portable?”

David points out that AR glasses are not “portable” if you have to remove and store them when not in use and that people are not going to wear big and bulky glasses all day.

44:11 Closing Comments by all the Panelist

Jason leads the closing by asking all the panelists what Snap and Meta’s announcements mean for the AR market.

52:27 A few post roundtable comments.

A few comments on how some thought we might have gone much longer.